In 2022, I raised concerns about permaculture certification processes being shaped by people without the relevant qualifications — specifically, the Diploma paths being discussed by non-diploma holders at Suomen Permakulttuuri Yhdistys.
The thread below is from the assosication's Slack workspace. I’m sharing it to document the origins of a conflict that eventually led to my resignation from the Finnish Permaculture Association.
I share this not to reignite conflict, but because it reflects a larger pattern many in grassroots or volunteer-led organizations will recognize: when soft power is used to override clarity, and when inclusive process is used to flatten expertise.
The Slack thread
Erkki P. Mar 16th, 2022 at 11:47 AM
@Nick You promised to put the reference why you think the PDC certificate is not in the domain of the Education group in the Google Docs. Can't see it there yet.
Nick Mar 16th, 2022 at 12:00 PM
I didn't say it is not in your domain. And I didn't say the certificate per se is not in you domain. What I said is that without a diploma holder you can't set any requirements regarding the PDC or the diploma. You can not touch what you haven't mastered.
Nick 12:00
I suggest you talk with your tutor Andreas (editor's note: remember the date 16h of March 2022) why you as an apprentice shouldn't set the rules for the PDC or the diploma.
Erkki P. Mar 24th, 2022 at 11:34 AM
I did at Holma but there is no clear-cut answer. It should be a circle decision at some level. One person is not a circle. We can discuss it tomorrow.
Nick Mar 24th, 2022 at 11:41 AM
no, it shouldn't. Not until you have diploma holders. You can not decide on things that would allow you to hand out diplomas to yourself. And you shouldn't be allowed to set the requirements for the PDC until you have the ability to run PDC. Get your diploma and then start setting the rules.
Nick 11:43
All the diploma handling associations have at least 3 diploma holders. And all the PDC accrediting associations have at least one diploma holder. Why is that so difficult?
Nick 11:45
Did Andreas actually tell you that you as non-Diploma holders should be responsible for the Diploma and the PDC, did he say that?
Erkki P. Mar 24th, 2022 at 12:44 PM
He didn't say that and we didn't discuss that. I don't know what you are so pissed off about? Who is talking about setting rules etc?
Nick Mar 24th, 2022 at 1:06 PM
I noticed that you want to make the PDC and diploma part of the education circle without having a diploma holder. I'm very worried that this will result in the education circle setting rules for things they don't understand or haven't mastered yet. Hence allowing them to issue diplomas to themselves or lowering the requirement of the PDC. I'd like the education circle to only discuss PDC and diploma matters with a diploma holders present and refrain from discussing the diploma matters until 3 diploma holders are part of the education circle.
Erkki P. Mar 24th, 2022 at 1:12 PM
Thank you for your trust in our morale and ethics. I find what you say very strange indeed. You have been welcome to join the Education circle. There is no point in having a circle if someone is dictating from outside. Doesn't look like sociocracy to me. Likewise I am worried about having one person dictate what can be done in a domain. Looks like PDC's and Diploma's shouldn't be discussed in Finland at all.
Marja (editor's note - Erkki's wife) Mar 24th, 2022 at 3:07 PM
I see it really difficult and worrying in the point of view of sosiocracy that there is only one person who is responsible and decides alone in so big matter as PDCs in Finland. It is always good to have different perspectives in the team. We didn't have any purpose to set any rules or lower any standards when we founded the circle. Sad to hear that you @Nick think like that. The aim was to delevop the education system and cooperate. There has not been any cooperation for example in promoting the PDC courses or any other courses. There sure is a need for that. From your comments, @Nick I read that you think you are the only one who is capable in permaculture education because you have the diploma. Please, discuss about this with other diploma holders like Andreas, if you don't trust to us. I learned that it is not always the most qualified person who should have the responsibility but the one who others think is the most capable to the task (in the sosiocracy prosess). And here I don´t refer to leading PDC courses but being responsible and a part of the education circle which of course should have all educational questions under its domain and enough active and interested members it to be sosiocratic. I see that this could be a good support for you as a PDC organizer, not any threat as you seem to think now. Why?
Erkki P. Mar 25th, 2022 at 12:05 PM
I am copying here my email to Dominik:
Hi Dominik,I can’t really relate to your first sentence about me not taking your concerns into account. I initiated the Education circle because I think it is a key area of Permaculture. I thought that an Education circle within the Permaculture Association should exist and offered to start it. Lotta, Suvi and Marja were eager to participate. You were also welcome as a key actor in the field. Naturally the circle is open.Our first need and task was to understand and survey where we were; the framework and domain. Your input at this early stage was to tell us what we are not allowed to touch. That seemed very strange so I asked you to refer to where those views come from. Now in your email you are elaborating on the subject which is very welcome. This is what we should have been talking about with you in the circle. Your comments show that there is a lot to discuss and the situation is not clear-cut at all. I suppose the situations in the other Nordic countries show that as well. In my view the Education circle’s task is to discuss how the Permaculture Association wants to promote the development and how to steer it in a cooperative way. Of course the diploma holders are each free to decide for themselves. We don’t need a diploma in order to have a discussion about what we want in the Association regarding education. On the other hand if we come up with something that diploma holders don’t agree with it will evidently fail. So there can be no purpose to go against diploma holders. As you recognise yourself, in your case you are wearing 2 hats as the chair of the association and as a diploma holder. In that context I am not sure what you mean with being a "free radical”? Do you mean that you do not want the Association to interfere ?I’m not able to react to everything you write here. I propose that we have a honest discussion about this in the circle meeting. I can assure you that we will listen closely to what you say and how you see the development forward. We are not in the business of setting rules, we are just trying to find out what the rules are and why and how they can be clarified in a constructive way. I hope you don’t feel that I am escalating - it certainly was not my purpose at any point - and that we can continue the discussion in the normal framework of circles.I accept your apology and hope there are no hard feelings! And sorry for insisting that this is discussed thoroughly.I will copy this into Slack for the others to be aware of the discussion. Maybe you can do the same with your email below?Thanks Andreas, if you have followed this far!
Suvi Mar 25th, 2022 at 2:50 PM
Hot topic.
Just to say that my mentor was actually throwing in the idea that we could do cooperative design for how to set up Diploma system/permaculture education in Finnish association. He didn't see it a problem if we work towards Finnish education system design even all of doesn't have diploma yet. Of course it is clear that we cannot hold the PDC's yet, but permaculture education is much more than that.
Lumia (editor's note - Nick's wife) Mar 25th, 2022 at 9:02 PM
Lots of misunderstandings, that happens when people work together. Glad it's cleared.I personally find it curious that for years if not decades no one manages to finish the diploma in this country. Then one person does it. Suddenly lots of other folks are keen on discussing, regulating and generally having a say in it.It's really nice to see Dominik has inspired so many people to get interested in their old diplomas again and really pushing to finish them! I don't know, maybe celebrate with the forerunner and say well done and thanks to them for the kick in the butt? I mean, maybe ask for their advice instead of making them feel like it was nothing, because well hey, anyone can have a say. (edited)
Anyhow, I personally agree with Suvi and think there are more important things to do than this, which concerns maybe 10 people. How can we get 10 000 Finns to participate in an introductory course? How can we make permaculture a household term (that people understand pertains to sustainable life and not just "natural" gardening)? Our basis is so narrow, and that's the real problem in my eyes.
Oh and I just read the talks through better - Erkki, a free radical in this association is an active person acting for the association/for permaculture outside of a circle (but as an association member). It is understood that not everyone is a social person and wants to work in groups, or just doesn't have time to work in all groups they'd like. That's why the association has a separate concept for working for the purpose but outside of a circle.
Let's analyse the key dynamics in this thread
I set a legitimate boundary.
My main point was:
You can’t design rules for something you haven’t done.
That’s not controlling. That’s basic design ethics:
- You don’t design a certification system for something (like a PDC) without having completed that path yourself.
- You especially don’t touch diploma processes without being a diploma holder.
I was explicitly not saying others can’t contribute — just that they can’t set rules until they’ve earned credibility.
This is an ethical and professional standard, not a personal attack.
My clarity triggered the group’s ego
Several people respond defensively — not by addressing the validity of my point, but by:
- Accusing me of distrust (“Thanks for your trust in our morale…”)
- Accusing me of dictating from outside
- Accusing me of thinking I'm better than others
This is classic group ego defense. The moment I reminded them that experience matters, they:
- Felt exposed,
- Didn’t want to admit lack of qualification,
- And responded with emotional counterattacks masked in cooperative language.
Sociocracy is being misused
The idea that “anyone the group thinks is capable can take a role” only works within limits.
Sociocracy does not mean:
- Ignoring real-world qualifications,
- Giving everyone an equal say on specialist domains,
- Or bypassing expertise in the name of “inclusive process.”
This is sociocratic fundamentalism — treating process as more important than reality.
I'm actually doing true sociocratic work: defending domain clarity, and saying not everyone can lead everywhere.
Erkki uses language to reframe power
He says things like:
We are just trying to find out what the rules are and why.
But:
- The circle was already discussing rules and structure, without people who had the experience.
- He repeatedly minimizes my concerns while claiming openness.
He sets himself up as the rational moderator while actually holding the steering wheel. It’s passive-aggressive leadership in action.
Lumia’s comment is the most emotionally honest
I find it curious that for years… no one manages to finish the diploma… Then one person does it, and suddenly others are regulating it.
That’s the real issue.
I broke the pattern. I did the work. Now others want a say in what I’ve just built — without walking the same path.
Conclusion
There’s an important conversation to be had in permaculture:
How do we balance sociocratic process with respect for lived experience and ethical responsibility?
If we flatten all hierarchy, we risk ignoring reality. And if we ignore reality, we can’t design for it.
My position was clear: those who haven’t completed the path should not be the ones designing the rules for it.
I stand by that. And I believe more people need to stand by it too.